flattest shooting caliber to 500 yards

Good video! At A Glance: Our Top 5 Picks For Long Range Calibers in 2022 Best for Beginners: 5.56mm/.223 Remington Minimal Recoil: 224 Valkyrie Best for Long Range: 243 Winchester Best for Seasoned Shooters: 6mm Creedmoor Best Value: 6.5mm Grendel But truth be told, every Weatherby cartridge is a long-range cartridge. . He has managed multiple gun ranges, and has hunted around the world. For deer and lesser critters, its a solid 500-yard cartridge. So, if you want to go long, there are some clear choices here. Excellent work!! Something like a 7mm Ultramag shooting a 120 TTSX would be pretty flat shooting to 500. Should you have other helpful info, please send it to me by email: [emailprotected]. Bullet B.C. Prairie dogs?). Might be of interest and I have used the cartridge in a Ruger M77 with a 22 barrel. Time of flight impacts bullet drop more than anything else. Below is a chart indicating the three best flat-shooting cartridges and their muzzle velocity, drop, energy levels, and felt recoil. Flattest-Shooting Cartridges Ever Backfire 641K subscribers Subscribe 4.2K 173K views 1 year ago The flattest shooting rifle cartridges are listed in this video to help shooters determine. Well, theres really only one option in .22-caliber and thats the .224 Valkyrie. . Flattest Shooting Cartridges by Caliber Ron Spomer Outdoors 1.1M views 1 year ago Worst and Best Way to Sight a Rifle! Nosler Trophy Grade Long Range with a 129-grain AccuBond Long Range bullet at 3,400 fps. Be aware that many of these bullets could have been target bullets. Richard Mann Run those numbers on JBM. It was introduced in 1962 and essentially knocked the .264 Winchester Magnum several notches down on the popularity list after hunters and shooters put the 7mm Mag to the test. 28 Nosler cartridge For decades, the Nosler cartridge has ruled the world of a flat shooting range with complete dominance. I asked around a few years ago and found 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum as the most overbore commercial cartridge. Mag. I took multiple loads from each, but identical sources. 95% of your shots will be inside 500 yards, and probably 80% inside 300. . flat-shooting, and light recoiling cartridge was extremely effective on deer-sized game. For flat shooting over a relatively close range you need a lot of velocity, BC doesn't matter that much over shorter distances. Not sure if the OP is considering them or not. The .223 Remington will easily take care of any varmint out to around 500 yards, but at extreme distances loses its punch. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'backfire_tv-box-4','ezslot_7',175,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-backfire_tv-box-4-0'); Spinning high B.C. Most common calibers are just fine for regular range shots under 300 yards. I hope this report clears up some trajectory confusion and perhaps settles some old arguments. So since it doesnt work AT ALL for serious shooters, it doesnt get much air time, and then the average hunter who only shoots 2-3 boxes per YEAR never hears about it. Also look at Federal Premiums 180-grain Nosler AccuBond offering at 2,960 fps. What bullet weight did you select for the .270 Winchester? I have a 27 3/4" barrel 264 Win mag that shoots 130 Accubonds 3350 fps with Retumbo. But can it defend that title at 1,000 yards? They have 1 particular cartridge thats something of a hot-shot for flat shooting, long distance devastation; the Weatherby .30-378. These cartridges all drop less than 255 at 1,000 yards. JavaScript is disabled. Best Ive been able to do is run ballistic charts on many combinations, knowing that muzzle velocity is of major importance and bullet B.C. I realize that you looked at several different loads for each cartridge to figure out which one was the flattest shooting. When it came out in 1925, 300 yards was considered about the max distance for shots on game, and the .270 Winchester was quickly recognized as one of, if not the, best commercial option for that. 270 and 30-06 carry enough power out to 700 yards, 7mm pulls a bit further, and 300 win mag pulls a bit further still. I am curious to see how it does for a 22 that can push any bullet weight made for it. again. Its just human nature to celebrate and admire the biggest, bestest, and flattest. Another and even better option for reaching out to a big game animal with an AR15 is the 6.5 Grendel. However, the .50BMG bullet will reach the target with 143 less drop than the 6.5 Creedmoor, because it has more mass which leads to a higher BC, and that higher BC given the same velocity, makes it slow down less during flight. To be fair to the 30-378, itmurders everything else for flatness way out there, staying feet above most other cartridges and carrying enough energy to take a deer at just over 1000 yards. What caliber rifle shoots the farthest? Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 6.5mm and 7mm projectiles offer very high ballistic coefficients, meaning they offer excellent ability to overcome drag and wind deflection over longer distances. You can argue that you can get the 243 WSSM shooting flatter, but that cartridge is already considered obsolete. Impeccable analysis here. Fun? Any cartridge that drops less than 40 inches at 500 yards or close to 200 inches at 1000 yards should be considered a flat shooting cartridge. While heavier bullets at low speed dont shoot as flat, they do carry energy further generally. The .270 Winchester stays supersonic out to 1,400 yards, which is more than what 99 percent of hunters will ever need. Thanks Good work mate. Nosler Trophy Grade Long Range, 150-grain AccuBond Long Range at 2,930 fps. Most of these are all-around cartridges intended for variety of CXP2 and CXP3 class game that offer an adequately flat trajectory for antelope hunting with appropriate loads (usually the lighter weight bullets . A long-time favorite of snipers, the .308 Winchester will remain supersonic out to around 1,200 yards. But, as an extreme range competition shooter recently told me, the number of cold barrel, first round hits he sees at 1,000 yards in competition is well below 50%. rating, that 100-grain bullet is hanging in there. But what are the flattest shooting rifle cartridges? Indeed, some deer also live in places where a 50-yard shot is much more likely than a 500-yard shot. The flattest-shooting popular rifle cartridge at 1,000 yards is the 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, followed by the .26 Nosler, the .28 Nosler, the .22 Creedmoor, and the 6.5 Weatherby RPM. All same bullets for each of the numbers that are then averaged. Terry Cross. Heck, I cant even find agreement on maximum muzzle velocities in handloading manuals from Speer, Hornady, Nosler, Berger, Swift, Hodgdon, Norma, Sierra, Barnes Furthermore, just because the manual lists those speeds does not mean your rifle will deliver them. Despite its relatively low B.C. Mag. To even things out, Ive zerod all cartridges at 100, drops are listed in feet and cartridges that fell below 1000 ft-lbs didnt get past the next 100 yard clip. It is capable of sending a 55-grain bullet from the muzzle at 3,700 fps. It has flipped positions with the 6.5, losing by a mere 1.4-inches. 10 Things We All Hate About flattest shooting caliber to 500 yards Yash June 15, 2021 57 views 3 minute read This is the one in the middle, the flattest shooting caliber to 500 yards. I am looking for a really flat shooting cartridge up to 500 yards for a Remington rebarrel project I have. Recoil is negligible, making it a great option for hunter with sensitive shoulders. But the 7mm Remington Magnum will remain supersonic out to 1,400 yards or a bit more, making a good choice for cross-canyon hunting. Why is the 7 MM Ultra Mag also called the 7RUM not on your lists? Know your trajectory curve and nail the shot distance with a range finder and you can offset huge rates of drop. plays a major roll in trajectory, but is second in significance to muzzle velocity. The newest addition to the Nosler line of proprietary cartridges is the 27 Nosler. The .25-06 is the flattest shooting, hardest hitting, lowest recoiling cartridge available. The 27 Nosler bests the .270 Winchester by about 400 fps with 150-grain bullets. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. I still shoot a .270 caliber cartridge and the same 150gr bullet, but with a 3gr powder charge boost. Our blog and video on the Flattest Shooting Cartridge Ever! Sign up with your email address to receive news and updates. = 3002 inches = 250 foot = 76m above target at 1000 yds now thats a challenge ! (Essentially, you don't have to arc the 300 Win Mag's bullet trajectory in order to strike a target up . First, some boundaries. It started with the .30/30 and continued with the .30/06 and .308 and right up to todays .300 Blackout. Your email address will not be published. Thats equal magnitude to 200fps less flatness! Therefore my velocity is up to around 3175fps, BC .434 G1 and the 500 yard drop is 23 with a 300 yard zero sight in. Bullets of this diameter are easily configured to have extremely high ballistic coefficients. . Ive posted your article on my wildlife and hunting group on FB. Different shooters will all have different calibers that are better suited for their specific goal or mission. It will push a 90-grain Fusion bullet to 500 yardswhich is probably the limit for . I blog often and I truly appreciate your content. I know its a great round, but its by a long shot the best selling rifle chambering of the last several years. He just never made it official. Great information! Some of those 26 and 28 Nosler rifles only have 600-900 shots of total barrel life. bullet twice that far. What caliber rifle shoots the flattest? If it makes you feel better to hate the 6.5 Creedmoor, go ahead. If youre after critters deer-size and up, the field is dominated by .30-caliber, 6.5mm, and 7mm cartridges, with the best long-range options remaining supersonic out to at least 1,400 yards. By way of comparison, the .270 Winchester (based on the .30-06 Springfield) offers a case capacity of 67 grains. A few specialty matches, such as the Farr trophy at Camp Perry, are fired at 1,000 yards. At 300 yards, the hold over (assuming a 250 yard zero) is only 2.6 inches. Most shots are taken at short range, but some experienced marksmen with good rifles, known distances, and good conditions may need to make connections at longer distances. Depending on the caliber you are using, a long-range shooting may be at 1,000 and more yards, but if you are committed to rimfires than 200-300 yards is very long-distance shooting. But can it defend that title at 1,000 yards? It nearly matches the ballistics of the Winchester Magnum, but does so in rifles with faster-twist barrels and modern powders that extend barrel life. This is with a 58gr charge of Hodgen 4831 powder. The new Federal Premium, 130-grain Terminal Ascent load with a muzzle velocity of 2825 fps shoots flat and the bullet is tough enough to handle up close impacts while still delivering good. Since 1962, when the round was introduced in conjunction with the Remington 700, countless others have arrived at the same conclusion. This newer Weatherby 6.5 combines plenty of gas with manageable recoil. that are blowing the ceiling off gun sales, instead of 6 5 CDM? Shooters have no real idea how much drop a bullet has at long ranges like 1500 yards. Mag. A flat shooting cartridge matters. Loaded with a 130-grain bullet, it will carry more than 1000 foot-pounds of energy out past 600 yards. Awesome indoor range. Hornady 123-grain SST at 2580 fps. Its trajectory is awesome. At 500 yards . I too share your endorsement of Ron, his videos are a treat each week. And they can change in your rifle and will change at different velocities. So I find it strange you dont have it on any of the lists from what I have seen. It just murders your shoulder, ears, and pocketbook at the same time . (For anyone who gets worked up about the fact that the .30/06 isnt on this list, feel free to swap it with this one, as long as you dont mind the extra kick. This cartridge existed in a cloak of obscurity for a long time; only recently have hunters began to see the potential it offers. (This is essentially what Hornady did to the .260 Remington to make the 6.5 Creedmoor.) The quicker it gets to 200 yards the less time gravity has been working on it and the less it will drop. Considered by many to be the optimum long-range, large-game cartridge, the .300 Winchester Magnum has proven itself worldwide. The flattest-shooting cartridges usually have Nosler or Weatherby in their name, and the top three flat-shooting cartridges were created by those respected companies. inspired a lot of comments, dissent, and different candidates for the title, so lets take a more detailed look at the flattest of the flat. The best long-range cartridge in the world might be the .408 Chey-Tac. It seems a bit odd to consider a .22-caliber cartridge of any design suitable for long-range hunting of even smallish big game. The new Federal Premium, 130-grain Terminal Ascent load with a muzzle velocity of 2825 fps shoots flat and the bullet is tough enough to handle up close impacts while still delivering good expansion at distance. It will push a 90-grain Fusion bullet to 500 yardswhich is probably the limit for big game with this cartridgewhile still retaining enough velocity to initiate expansion. For example , the chart I used showed about 67-70 drop for .270 at 600 yd.. This is more a theory question than anything. But what are the flattest shooting rifle cartridges? That kind of long-range accuracy comes at a hefty price with this model starting at $11,700 from the manufacturer. 243 and 25-06 had to be left out because it didnt have enough at 600 for even deer. For good reason. Its very clear that you went through a huge amount of work to pull all of this info together. Case capacity is literally and figuratively the driving force here: Both Nosler offerings are based on the 300 Remington Ultra Magnum and both boast case capacities of 93.5 grains of water. What Ive done with this deep dive review is use the highest Handloading Manual velocities Ive discovered, trusting that you, gentle reader, will understand that your mileage may vary. Its bullets will remain supersonic out past 2,000 yards. A popular western big-game cartridge, the 7mm Magnum doubles as an excellent tool for long-range target shooting. The result of this work was a flat shooting and hard hitting sniper cartridge with 200 to 400 yards of extended reach compared to the 7.62mm M118. throwing a 55-gr. I subscribed to your Feed as well. The flattest shooting caliber and load I could find was the .300 RUM shooting a 150 grain bullet. At 1000 yards a .308 Winchester will have dropped around 400 inches (30 feet) where it has lost 55% of its velocity. It is not always the caliber that is in question. Your email address will not be published. Why? I truly don't believe a senseable person would use ANY .22 caliber rifle for deer hunting. Introduced by Remington in 1962 along with their Model 700 bolt-action rifle, Remingtons Seven-Mag was the beginning of the end of Winchesters .264. A big 7mm like the 7rum can put a 140 with nearly a .500 bc downrange at over 3500 fps or a 120 with about a .400 bc in the 3600+ fps range. The spin rate helps to stabilize the projectile along its path, cut through drag and higher case capacities give the projectile more velocity thus delivering the bullet to the target more quickly. With the ability to handle more aerodynamic bullets than the .270 Winchester or the .270 WSM, the 6.8 Western and its 1-in-8 twist rate allows this cartridge to outperform both at distance. Great job. Just $1 per month , These rounds have the reach and the power to put down big-game animals way out there, By The best long-range cartridges are those that are flat shooting, feature aerodynamic projectiles and have enough power to go the distance. That's pretty dang flat. I stopped there because few hunters are going to tolerate the recoil or rifle weight needed to operate a flat shooter above 338-caliber. The way in which cartridge manufacturers develop rounds to overcome these forces is the twist rates of the barrels in the rifles the cartridges are chambered in, developing longer, more aerodynamic bullets with narrower ogives and case capacity. Hornady Precision Hunter 143-grain ELDX at 2,960 fps. But if it isnt, go read the article again. Most fall close to the .22 caliber bullet range, and can dip down to .17 caliber and up to .264 (6.5 mm). the max load is the distance load. Hornady's Precision Hunter 145-grain ELD-X at 2,950 fps is the flattest-shooting .270 Winchester load. Its like a shorter, beltless version of the .300 Winchester Magnum. All the following data was computer generated as if all loads were fired from a (simulated) dead flat (level) barrel, so these are pure drops. For example a 308 dropping 429 at 1000 yards is ridiculous, thats 10 meters! Pronghorn hunters have driven the search for flatter shooting cartridges for a long time. The longer the bullet is in the air, the longer gravity can pull on the object. As magnums go, the .257 Weatherby is a mild kicker, and it's a great long-range cartridge for deer, pronghorn, sheep, and the like. Nor are we maintaining that the flattest shooting cartridge/bullet is the ultimate determinant of a good hunting round. Just what the perfect balance between MV and BC is remains unanswered by me. Though that shot didn't take advantage of the 7mm Mag's flat trajectory, it convinced me of the cartridge's superior qualities. The 50 BMG is still supersonic past 1200 yards. | It may not display this or other websites correctly. In general, lightweight bullets driven very fast shoot flatter than heavier bullets with better aerodynamics (high B.C. The caveat here is that fastest becomes a bit murky. 30-378 weatherby (214). The Barrett 416 or CheyTac exceeds this - I have witnessed it first hand - then you get into the wildcat cartridges. wins again with just 218.5 inches of drop, the 27 Nosler moves into second place with its 150-grain bullet falling only 225.8 inches. Just curious have you ever looked at the 284 Winchester for flat shooting. Not to mention the different variations in grains in each individual caliber,Ogive and BC. The wise longer range shooter errs on the side of a higher B.C. bullet. Please, keep up the great work! Thank you for the great content you provide. Flattest at 500 yards Weatherbys wildly overbore 6.5-300 wins again! This should be recommended reading for all shooters learning to shoot long range shots. Im not sure Im reading this right but there seems to be a decimal missing. Flattest at 500 yards Weatherby's wildly overbore 6.5-300 wins again! Still, if youre goal is to push heavy projectiles to the outer reaches, Noslers 28 may be the best 7mm option out there. modifies results at some point. It will be built on a stiller predator action, carbon wrap or #4 fluted stainless at 26 inches. Here we go! 223 Remington, or 5.56 NATO is more than capable of shooting over 500 yards with accuracy. It shoots as flat as a Kansas prairie and holds its velocity way out there. That said, average shots on mule deer are often longer than what most hunters typically encounter on eastern whitetail hunts. I know you won't find them in the US, but just wanted to mention them because it's fun. Its a top choice of military snipers and can launch heavy bullets with high speed and exceptional precision. The 6.5 Creedmoor will remain supersonic out to 1,400 yards and is quickly becoming the most popular long-range, big-game cartridge in the world. As soon as a projectile leaves the muzzle, the earths gravity instantly begins to affect the trajectory of the round. Take a look at the MPBR column and note how close they all are. When considering cartridges for their ability to shoot flat, overcoming drag is critical. Take another look. It propels a 17 Grain bullet at 2,550 feet per second. A 25 yard miscalculation at that distance will vary your hit by half a foot and outside our 6 imaginary circle of vitals. rating, that 100-grain bullet is hanging in there. Target Rifle- Caliber Question. "Animal Instinct ammunition is optimized to deliver . So dont assume that youll be shooting the worlds flattest rifle cartridge and bullet until youve verified your MV and bullet B.C. Many people found it informative, but some of the hunters wanted to know if you have any statistics available on the calibers as listed above. But a reputation for burning out barrels ultimately doomed the cartridge. The .308 Winchester will win no ballistic awards; its simply a shorter version of the time-tested and beloved .30/06. With a growing choice of ammo from 90-130 grain projectiles and the benefit of a great ballistic coefficient with the 6.5mm bullet, 500+ yard shooting can be almost boring. Most center-fire rifles that are legal for deer hunting can take a deer at 300 yards. I know it is very uncommonly talked about. I work at a very large and popular firearms dealer, and I have sold dozens (if not hundreds) if the 6.5, but I havent sold 1, or had anyone even ask about the top 3 in this list. . How about our drops on the cartridges that made it? Thanks for your hard work and entertaining videos, your passion shines through! Most of the calculators out there show larger drop rates then your table. For the Top 5 you have listed, what manufacturers offer a complete rifle in those calibers? Also, youll find more ammo options for the .308 Winchester than any of the others. The 257 Weatherby Mag. A bullet starts to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. Just hoping my bad experiences might inspire you to avoid some of your own. The .17 HMR is based upon the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire casing, necked down to .17 Caliber. While at the High Bar Homestead with PSA, I was able to stretch their 6.5 Grendel out to 1,000 yards with Federal Premium 130 grain Bergers. As for targeting game at extreme distances, yes, I realize there are thousands of dedicated, well-trained long range shooters who are as good at 1,000 yards as many of us are at 500 yards and some of us at 200 yards. Normas 180-grain BondStrike Extreme at 3,084 fps is new and very flat-shooting. Only B.C. A 30-06 will take any game on the NA Continent. The goal with the 6 mm ARC was to provide the flattest-shooting cartridge compatible with an AR-15. Surprisingly, even with all the extra recoil and muzzle blast, this cartridge will not shoot any flatter than most 6.5s. Youre going to miss with any flat shooting cartridge out there and with a perfectly accurate rifle. But it's still a better distance choice than the .270 Winchester past 400 yards (a great caliber as well). I was once hunting plains game in Africa when my PH told me, holding a rangefinder, that the wildebeest was 155 yards away. Thank you for the time it took to work all this data up in an easy to absorb article, where are you getting your information for the bullet drop? Kind of underwhelming, right? Commissions are earned for links to Brownell's, Amazon, MidwayUSA, GoHunt, OpticsPlanet, Sportsman's Warehouse, and other retailers. A relatively flat-shooting cartridge, hunters with skill regular make shots out to 400 and 500 yards with the cartridge on small gamesome hunters even farther. (not the bullet Id choose for this beast, just puts it nicely in line with the others), What does that do for you at regular ranges? None of them will turn you into a trained sniper, but if youve put in the range time and have the skills to stretch it out, these 10 cartridges have the reach and the thump to put game on the ground from the next canyon over. Recoil is stiff and some find it hard to master. Thanks. But lets take a quick look at a historically popular flat-shooting cartridge, the .270 Winchester. Its really tough to spot impacts with that much recoil, and thats becoming increasingly important for shooters. If there was ever a cult cartridge, the .280 Ackley Improved is it. Ive included different bullet weights/BCs for most rounds to illustrate how BC changes drop at longer ranges. Outstanding job!! Although its going to be easier to estimate drop for a 700 yard shot with a 30-378, compared to a 30-06, you still need to range your animal within +/-25 yards using the 30-378 to hit vitals. The URSA gongs are 37 inches round and if you get 4 out of 10 you advance in 500 yard increments. My name is Steve and I have just viewed your video on the Flattest Shooting Cartridges. Based on the old .404 Jeffery case, its the same length as the .30/06, which means it works in standard-length actions. Yes, the article most definitely included the 7mm Mag, but the specific cartridge mentioned by Nick is what the original article would have included as an exotic version, NOT something found chambered in most any rifle. Flattest Shooting Hunting Bullet 257 Weatherby Vanguard 26" pipe. Choosing the proper ammunition and knowing your own capabilities at those distances is most important. I'm trying to find the best round from the muzzle to 500yds as far as trajectory. Just wondering where the 300 win mag ends up? The .204 will work quiet well at 500 yards with good shot placement. Gravity impacts all objects the same. If you like the idea of a six-five for going long, but hate the Creed and want something a bit different, the 6.5-284 Norma is the way to go. It makes for easy reading in an \all in one place\ comparison, rather than spending time trying to find this data all over the internet. Generally, a 300 Win Mag's 150 grain bullet delivers a 3,260 fps muzzle velocity, while its 180 grain bullet achieves approximately 3,000 fps. For example, the 7mm Weatherby Magnum will shoot the same bullet as a 7mm Remington Magnum, but it will do it about 10 percent faster. I appreciate the kind comment. The 300 PRC will cruise above the speed of sound out to 1,650 yards. The issue with the Nosler cartridges is barrel life. Trust but verify. The RPM does not have a belt or the customary Weatherby radiused shoulder, and it was designed to go with an ultra-light hunting rifle. That's pretty dang flat. However, the .220 Swift and the .22-250 have been used to take deer out to distances a lot of folks got no business shooting, for a long, long time. But again, that just my opinion. However, I fully admit that that a flat shooting cartridge is not nearly as important as a cartridge which is resistant to wind deflection. 6.5-300 WBY (-204) Based on the now almost-forgotten .284 Winchester, the 6.5-284 Norma was originally a wildcat cartridge and a very popular one, especially in bench-rest competitions. A Canadian sniper had a record kill at over 3500 yards last year in Afghanistan. i've heard the .17 hmr are real flat shooting. Low B.C. Now, you might think this cartridge is new and unproven. From an external ballistics standpoint, it cannot compete with any of the cartridges on this list, but in the field where it matters, it works wonders, and only the 6.5 Creedmoor has less recoil. Wind also affects bullets differently, and a cartridges ability to overcome these three forces makes it better or worse for shooting flat and far. Just saying, excellent job to tell the nature of all calibers for hunting from 100 to 700 yards for medium game. Precision, varmint, big-game, and dirt cheap NATO surplus ammo for plenty of cheap shooting. This is one of the flattest shooting bullets available on the market, with a plethora of different size bullets available that range from 75 grains for small game, all the way up to 120 grains for deer. Preferred Caliber For 500 To 1,000 Yards And Beyond: 6.5 Creedmoor Preferred Rifle And Optic: A Rainier Arms precision rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and enhanced by H&H Precision with an Orias chassis from Killer Innovations. So its not like the flattest shooting rifle gives you a lot more leeway on ranging errors for super long range shots. Hey there from Melbourne, Australia. The 243 Winchester and 6mm Remington have reputations for shooting flat, but the lesser known 240 Weatherby magnum fires the same bullets at higher velocities, so its the flattest of the 24-calibers. Taylor's formula calculates a less-inspiring TKO number of 37. Great information you have come up with.



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